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    Re: When did "time sights" fade away?
    From: Ray Pink
    Date: 2011 Jul 16, 12:51 +0800
    Hi Henry,
    I must congratulate you for putting down all you know, that has been gleamed from years of experience. I have saved the attachment and will read it very soon I hope.
    I have been trying to teach myself Celestial Nav for a few years now and the more I delve into this fascinating subject the more I realize the amount that I don't know and it is from people like you that I hope to learn a lot more.
    I am no way in the same league as some of my esteemed friends on NavList and I only marvel at the knowledge that these people have. I read very article but unfortunately a lot of it goes over my head at present but I still save it away for later reference when I may be able to put 2 and 2 together to "have a light bulb moment"
    Over the years so much knowledge has been lost to mankind because people have passed away with knowledge they thought that was from a bygone era and no one would be interested in it today, that is so sad. Sad because the person thought me had no more to offer his fellow man and sad that that knowledge is lost. I applaud you for sharing the knowledge that you have and welcome more "wisdom" if you care to share it, if with no body else then with me.
    Thank you for sharing Henry, and may I become only half the navigator that you and others in the group obviously are and I'll die a happy man.
    Yours in appreciation
    Ray Pink
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: hch
    Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2011 10:21 AM
    Subject: [NavList] Re: When did "time sights" fade away?

    To all who may be interested,

    A short while ago, Frank posted a short problem relating to the "old navigation" and sought responses. The response was abysmal, to say the least - to the best of my knowledge, there were two responses and Frank, wisely in my opinion, dropped the issue.

    Ariel navigation and short tabular methods seem to be the currently popular topic, and one "has to go with the flow". This should not be construed as a complaint - it’s the normal ebb and flow of this List and certainly the way it should be. If you have something to say, be patient, your time will come.


    The subject of the Time Sight has again reared its head, and I am well aware that there are a few lurkers, old timers apparently, who have from time to time commented on this subject. I spent some 70-years in association with the Time Sight, and have prepared a summary of what I know, or at least think I know, about the subject in an effort to point out and perhaps correct some of the existent misconceptions apparently prevalent. Nothing I have said is new - everything said can, by diligent search, be pieced together by reference to the standard and authoritative works, i.e., Bowditch, Norie, Dutton, Moore, Lecky, Maury, etc., as well as those of many lesser lights. I have only tried, in a small way, to summarize the subject in one place.


    In consideration of the disinterested, I have included my summary as an attachment, to be deleted, if desired. From the interested, I earnestly solicit comments and remarks.






    PS: Has anyone  heard anything from or about George Huxtable. I do miss the young fellow terribly.



    --- On Sun, 7/10/11, Frank Reed <FrankReed@HistoricalAtlas.com> wrote:

    From: Frank Reed <FrankReed@HistoricalAtlas.com>
    Subject: [NavList] When did "time sights" fade away?
    To: NavList@fer3.com
    Date: Sunday, July 10, 2011, 7:33 PM

    In the middle of the twentieth century, various sources advocated the "New Navigation" over the "Old Navigation". New Navigation won out and consists of some variant on the intercept method and plotting lines of position --in other words, standard late-20th century celestial navigation. The Old Navigation was the more traditional system where separate sights were taken for latitude and longitude. The longitude sights were really sights for local time so they were often called "time sights". They had been standard daily navigational practice for well over a hundred years. So when did the Old Navigation actually fade away on merchant ships? 1950? 1960? Sooner in American shipping? Or British shipping? Or other traditions? Or did the Old and New more or less coexist for some decades with navigators plotting LOPs all day long and also taking time sights and latitude sights? Henry H., do you have any thoughts on the timing of this?

    For some background, back in 1979, a year after I had first learned celestial navigation at Mystic Seaport (definitely "New Navigation" and using the then relatively new H.O.229), a longtime friend of our family gave me a ride home from my job at Mystic Seaport (I didn't have a driver's license yet). He was Captain Adrian Lane, a fixture in Noank and Mystic back then. He was known for being an "old salt" and also a hard drinker (his wife was actually driving because he was already sloshed at 5pm that day). Anyway, as we're driving to Noank, he starts talking about taking afternoon Sun sights and waiting for the Sun to be as nearly due west as possible. Now at that time, I couldn't figure out what he was getting at, but he assured me that it was critical to celestial navigation. Maybe a year later I realized that he was talking about the Old Navigation, and time sights should of course be taken when the Sun bears close to east or west in order to minimize any error resulting from uncertainty in the dead reckoning latitude at that time. Adrian Lane had not been to sea in quite a few years, but around 1950 he had a rather prestigious command. He was captain for some five years of the Woods Hole research vessel, Atlantis, a very large ketch which was the platform for a great deal of deep ocean hydrographic work (the Space Shuttle Atlantis, currently docked at the International Space Station on the very last Space Shuttle mission was named for this sailing research vessel). After that Captain Lane was the first captain of Mystic Seaport's beautiful sailing yacht Brilliant, which is still used for sail training programs. Brilliant did plenty of offshore sailing including a couple of trans-Atlantic trips, so it's likely that his days aboard Brilliant were the last when he used celestial navigation at all. That would have been in the early 1960s. For those who worry about the math-heavy fascinations of some NavList members (myself included in that category, of course), it's worth mentioning that Captain Lane was famous for saying that all the math classes he took after high school never did him a bit of good, and spherical trigonometry was of no value in understanding celestial navigation (!).


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