Welcome to the NavList Message Boards.

NavList:

A Community Devoted to the Preservation and Practice of Celestial Navigation and Other Methods of Traditional Wayfinding

Compose Your Message

Message:αβγ
Message:abc
Add Images & Files
    Name or NavList Code:
    Email:
       
    Reply
    Re: Question on currents and waves
    From: John Huth
    Date: 2009 Dec 17, 07:33 -0500
    While I digest the above commentary, let me say something about Frank's quip:

    " the above joke, saying that "the physics is trivial" and will be left as "an exercise for the reader" is one way of saying that the physics is very messy and probably involves lots of real-world details and great complexity despite the simplicity of the principle. The devil is in the details.  " 

    As a physicist, I can attest that this is 100% true.    In fact, it's usually a sign that the professor decided to "punt" (Americanism) on a topic he couldn't prepare in time for lecture. 

    I'm beginning to think that the only way currents can affect waves is through some gradient effect - where the current velocity changes rapidly as a function of depth or position.   As a sea kayaker, I've seen this effect in tidal races, but here there are changes in current velocity with respect to shallow bottoms and edges.   

    I still have to digest this.   BTW, I have some of the quotes from Slocum et al. and will post them, just for fun. 


    On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 12:44 AM, <frankreed@historicalatlas.com> wrote:

    John, you wrote:
    " If everything is in a moving frame of reference together, I wouldn't expect any effect on the shape of waves. "

    True enough. If you drop a big rock into the water in the middle of the Gulf Stream, the waves from the splash won't look any different from the waves you would get if you dropped that same rock in Boston Harbor at the turn of the tide (or whenever the current has gone to zero).

    I'm fairly sure that waves look different in ocean currents because of a refraction effect as the waves originating outside the current cross the boundary of the current entering regions of steadily increasing current speed. And... hmmm... the rest of the physics is trivial and I leave it as an exercise for the reader.

    By the way, major oceans currents like the Gulf Stream extend hundreds of feet, even more than a thousand feet below the surface. Basically you have one great moving block of water too deep to give any "roots" to the ocean waves.

    Speaking of navigation ;-), it was commonly believed in the 18th century that ocean currents existed only at the surface and many people suggested that dead reckoning could be made much more accurate by dragging deep "sea anchors" of a sort. The deflection of the cable to such an anchor would have been a direct measure of true speed over the bottom if it had really been true that deep waters lacked currents. At least one legitimate proposal for winning the Longitude Prize was based on this idea.

    -FER
    PS: For those unfamiliar with the above joke, saying that "the physics is trivial" and will be left as "an exercise for the reader" is one way of saying that the physics is very messy and probably involves lots of real-world details and great complexity despite the simplicity of the principle. The devil is in the details.


    --
    NavList message boards: www.fer3.com/arc
    Or post by email to: NavList@fer3.com
    To , email NavList+@fer3.com

    --
    NavList message boards: www.fer3.com/arc
    Or post by email to: NavList@fer3.com
    To , email NavList+@fer3.com
       
    Reply
    Browse Files

    Drop Files

    NavList

    What is NavList?

    Get a NavList ID Code

    Name:
    (please, no nicknames or handles)
    Email:
    Do you want to receive all group messages by email?
    Yes No

    A NavList ID Code guarantees your identity in NavList posts and allows faster posting of messages.

    Retrieve a NavList ID Code

    Enter the email address associated with your NavList messages. Your NavList code will be emailed to you immediately.
    Email:

    Email Settings

    NavList ID Code:

    Custom Index

    Subject:
    Author:
    Start date: (yyyymm dd)
    End date: (yyyymm dd)

    Visit this site
    Visit this site
    Visit this site
    Visit this site
    Visit this site
    Visit this site