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    Re: Portuguese shipwreck question
    From: Tom Sult
    Date: 2009 Nov 04, 18:13 -0600


    Thomas A. Sult, MD
    Sent from iPhone

    On Nov 4, 2009, at 11:10, Wolfgang Köberer <koeberer{at}navigationsgeschichte.de> wrote:

    See, that’s the difference between us: every time your name pops up I am in hope that you have something to say which is not garnished with acid – at least as long as George is involved. As for me: I don’t care – as we say in this country: “Was juckt’s die deutsche Eiche, wenn sich die Sau dran reibt”

     

    My very best,

    Wolfgang

     

    Dr. Wolfgang Köberer
    Wolfsgangstr. 92
    D-60322 Frankfurt am Main

    Tel: + 49 69 95520851
    Fax: + 49 69 558400
    e-mail: koeberer{at}navigationsgeschichte.de

     


    Von: navlist@fer3.com [mailto:navlist@fer3.com] Im Auftrag von Peter Fogg
    Gesendet: Mittwoch, 4. November 2009 17:35
    An: navlist@fer3.com
    Betreff: [NavList 10435] Re: AW: [NavList 10430] Re: AW: [NavList 10428] Re: AW: [NavList 10424] Re: Portuguese shipwreck question

     

    Each time I see your name pop up, Wolfgang, I live in hope once more that, being a self-professed learned chappie, close both geographically and linguistically to this scene of action, with conceivably some interest in or knowledge about Frankish history and/or Germanic languages, you just might have something of relevance to contribute. 

    I can only conclude from what you have written so far that you do not, which is a pity.  For us all.

    On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 2:03 AM, Wolfgang Köberer <koeberer{at}navigationsgeschichte.de> wrote:

    Nice, but besides the point: „lingua franca“ is a term which wrongly identifies all non-Arab speaking with “Franks”: And that is not the “Frankish” language which you used to make your point, connecting it with Low German etc.

     

    But you’re right: there is confusion, but not between relevance and pedantry (which are categories that cannot be confounded anyway), but in your argument confounding the language that was spoken in territories that later belonged to France and a language that was spoken in the Med – and only called “language of the franks”. It is a common confusion, though, between the “significant” and the “signified”, so don’t despair.

     

    As always,

    Wolfgang

     

    Dr. Wolfgang Köberer
    Wolfsgangstr. 92
    D-60322 Frankfurt am Main

    Tel: + 49 69 95520851
    Fax: + 49 69 558400
    e-mail: koeberer{at}navigationsgeschichte.de

     


    Von: navlist@fer3.com [mailto:navlist@fer3.com] Im Auftrag von Peter Fogg
    Gesendet: Mittwoch, 4. November 2009 15:41
    An: navlist@fer3.com
    Betreff: [NavList 10430] Re: AW: [NavList 10428] Re: AW: [NavList 10424] Re: Portuguese shipwreck question

     

    Umm...  Your quote goes:  Lingua Franca literally means "Frankish language".
    My original statement in parenthesis was:  (literal meaning: Frankish language !). 
    Is there a difference?  That is what I said, in almost the same words.  I think.

    I then laboriously explained the common meaning of the phrase, which your quote supports, and am appropriately grateful for the additional information that the term originated as claimed (if correct).

    None of this has anything to do with 'my' conclusions, which stand thus far unchallenged.  Do try to avoid the confusion of pedantry with relevance.

    On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 12:41 AM, Wolfgang Köberer <koeberer{at}navigationsgeschichte.de> wrote:

    Being a simple soul – and additionally a nitwit as far as linguistics is concerned – I have turned to Wikipedia, who informs us about “lingua franca” – the origin of the term and what it denoted - in the following paragraph:

     

    “Originally lingua Franca (or Sabir) referred to a mixed language composed mostly of Italian with a broad vocabulary drawn from Persian, French, Greek and Arabic. Lingua Franca literally means "Frankish language". This originated from the Arabic custom of referring to all Europeans as Franks. This mixed language was used for communication throughout the medieval and early modern Middle East[ as a diplomatic language”.

     

    That’s what I said (in other words), I think. None of your “common language of the franks”, Peter. And therefore I think that your conclusions – being based on wrong (linguistic) premises – may only be true by chance (which – as we simple souls and pedants believe – does not provide a reliable conclusion at all).

     

    As always,

    Wolfgang

     

    Dr. Wolfgang Köberer
    Wolfsgangstr. 92
    D-60322 Frankfurt am Main

    Tel: + 49 69 95520851
    Fax: + 49 69 558400
    e-mail: koeberer{at}navigationsgeschichte.de

     


    Von: navlist@fer3.com [mailto:navlist@fer3.com] Im Auftrag von Peter Fogg
    Gesendet: Mittwoch, 4. November 2009 14:03
    An: navlist@fer3.com
    Betreff: [NavList 10428] Re: AW: [NavList 10424] Re: Portuguese shipwreck question

     

     

    Wolfgang Köberer schreibt:

    And as such [“self-appointed pedants extraordinaires”] let me point out that Peter’s “learned” statements about languages are nonsense, which could be explained by the fact that he looks at Europe upside down.

    You might be onto something there, Wolfgang.

    The “lingua franca” was by no means the common language of the “Franks” but a sort of pidgin language which evolved in the Middle ages around the Mediterranean through the contact of people speaking romanic languages with Arabs. And being based on romanic languages it has nothing to do with Low German.


    Ah Wolfgang.  Firstly; lingua franca, as I stated, literally means 'language of the Franks'.  It has a modern common meaning in English, and perhaps also in other tongues, as the language commonly understood or spoken in some place.  You appear to be confusing this expression (in Latin?) for the common Frankish language, ie; the one most commonly understood by that disparate mob.  There may well have been a lingua franca of the Mediterranean in the Middle Ages, just as there is a lingua franca of this NavList, which is English.

    What was that Frankish language?  It was based on the Rhinish tongue, that I have been given to understand was a Germanic dialect common to the length of the Rhine River, long long ago.  It has been described as Low German.  Over time it seems to have been displaced along most of the Rhine by what evolved as modern German, with its only descendants (that I am aware of) being the modern closely-related Flemish and Dutch languages, that of course are spoken in areas around the mouth of the Rhine.

    Having (re)said all that, I have no doubt that as the commonly understood language or lingua franca of an extensive empire this Frankish-speak would have had all sorts of words and expressions from other places mixed-in, and was quite likely a linguistic soup of some variety.

    Here is what Wikipedia has to say on the subject: 

    Charlemagne's native language is a matter of controversy. It was probably a Germanic dialect of the Ripuarian Franks, but linguists differ on its identity and chronology. Some linguists go so far as to say that he did not speak Old Frankish as he was born in 742 or 747, by which time Old Frankish had become extinct. Old Frankish is reconstructed from its descendant, Old Low Franconian, which would give rise to the Dutch language and to the modern dialects in the German North Rhineland, which were dubbed Ripuarian in modern times. Another important source are loanwords in Old French. Linguists know very little about Old Frankish, as it is attested mainly as phrases and words in the law codes of the main Frankish tribes (especially those of the Salian and Ripuarian Franks), which are written in Latin interspersed with Germanic elements.[5] The Franconian language, which was a form of Lower German, had been replaced with an Old High German form in the area comprising the contemporary Southern Rhineland, The Palatinate South Hessen and Northern parts of Baden-Württemberg and Bavaria. The present Dutch language area along with the modern Ripuarian areas in the North Rhine region preserved a Lower German form of Franconian dubbed Old Low Franconian or Old Dutch.

    I'd like to think that my version is simpler, and thus suitable for simple souls like you and me, although I recognise that linguistics is a complex subject.

     

     

     

     

     






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