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You both are doing a good job of not yelling at each other during  
this discussion, although some comments appear to have a barb or two  
attached!  Congratulations.

Fred Hebard

On Nov 4, 2009, at 10:03 AM, Wolfgang K�berer wrote:
> Nice, but besides the point: �lingua franca� is a term which  
> wrongly identifies all non-Arab speaking with �Franks�: And that is  
> not the �Frankish� language which you used to make your point,  
> connecting it with Low German etc.
>
>
>
> But you�re right: there is confusion, but not between relevance and  
> pedantry (which are categories that cannot be confounded anyway),  
> but in your argument confounding the language that was spoken in  
> territories that later belonged to France and a language that was  
> spoken in the Med � and only called �language of the franks�. It is  
> a common confusion, though, between the �significant� and the  
> �signified�, so don�t despair.
>
>
>
> As always,
>
> Wolfgang
>
>
>
> Dr. Wolfgang K�berer
> Wolfsgangstr. 92
> D-60322 Frankfurt am Main
>
> Tel: + 49 69 95520851
> Fax: + 49 69 558400
> e-mail: koeberer@navigationsgeschichte.de
>
>
>
> Von: navlist@fer3.com [mailto:navlist@fer3.com] Im  
> Auftrag von Peter Fogg
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 4. November 2009 15:41
> An: navlist@fer3.com
> Betreff: [NavList 10430] Re: AW: [NavList 10428] Re: AW: [NavList  
> 10424] Re: Portuguese shipwreck question
>
>
>
> Umm...  Your quote goes:  Lingua Franca literally means "Frankish  
> language".
> My original statement in parenthesis was:  (literal meaning:  
> Frankish language !).
> Is there a difference?  That is what I said, in almost the same  
> words.  I think.
>
> I then laboriously explained the common meaning of the phrase,  
> which your quote supports, and am appropriately grateful for the  
> additional information that the term originated as claimed (if  
> correct).
>
> None of this has anything to do with 'my' conclusions, which stand  
> thus far unchallenged.  Do try to avoid the confusion of pedantry  
> with relevance.
>
> On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 12:41 AM, Wolfgang K�berer  
>  wrote:
>
> Being a simple soul � and additionally a nitwit as far as  
> linguistics is concerned � I have turned to Wikipedia, who informs  
> us about �lingua franca� � the origin of the term and what it  
> denoted - in the following paragraph:
>
>
>
> �Originally lingua Franca (or Sabir) referred to a mixed language  
> composed mostly of Italian with a broad vocabulary drawn from  
> Persian, French, Greek and Arabic. Lingua Franca literally means  
> "Frankish language". This originated from the Arabic custom of  
> referring to all Europeans as Franks. This mixed language was used  
> for communication throughout the medieval and early modern Middle  
> East[ as a diplomatic language�.
>
>
>
> That�s what I said (in other words), I think. None of your �common  
> language of the franks�, Peter. And therefore I think that your  
> conclusions � being based on wrong (linguistic) premises � may only  
> be true by chance (which � as we simple souls and pedants believe �  
> does not provide a reliable conclusion at all).
>
>
>
> As always,
>
> Wolfgang
>
>
>
> Dr. Wolfgang K�berer
> Wolfsgangstr. 92
> D-60322 Frankfurt am Main
>
> Tel: + 49 69 95520851
> Fax: + 49 69 558400
> e-mail: koeberer@navigationsgeschichte.de
>
>
>
> Von: navlist@fer3.com [mailto:navlist@fer3.com] Im  
> Auftrag von Peter Fogg
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 4. November 2009 14:03
> An: navlist@fer3.com
> Betreff: [NavList 10428] Re: AW: [NavList 10424] Re: Portuguese  
> shipwreck question
>
>
>
>
>
> Wolfgang K�berer schreibt:
>
> And as such [�self-appointed pedants extraordinaires�] let me point  
> out that Peter�s �learned� statements about languages are nonsense,  
> which could be explained by the fact that he looks at Europe upside  
> down.
>
> You might be onto something there, Wolfgang.
>
> The �lingua franca� was by no means the common language of the  
> �Franks� but a sort of pidgin language which evolved in the Middle  
> ages around the Mediterranean through the contact of people  
> speaking romanic languages with Arabs. And being based on romanic  
> languages it has nothing to do with Low German.
>
>
> Ah Wolfgang.  Firstly; lingua franca, as I stated, literally means  
> 'language of the Franks'.  It has a modern common meaning in  
> English, and perhaps also in other tongues, as the language  
> commonly understood or spoken in some place.  You appear to be  
> confusing this expression (in Latin?) for the common Frankish  
> language, ie; the one most commonly understood by that disparate  
> mob.  There may well have been a lingua franca of the Mediterranean  
> in the Middle Ages, just as there is a lingua franca of this  
> NavList, which is English.
>
> What was that Frankish language?  It was based on the Rhinish  
> tongue, that I have been given to understand was a Germanic dialect  
> common to the length of the Rhine River, long long ago.  It has  
> been described as Low German.  Over time it seems to have been  
> displaced along most of the Rhine by what evolved as modern German,  
> with its only descendants (that I am aware of) being the modern  
> closely-related Flemish and Dutch languages, that of course are  
> spoken in areas around the mouth of the Rhine.
>
> Having (re)said all that, I have no doubt that as the commonly  
> understood language or lingua franca of an extensive empire this  
> Frankish-speak would have had all sorts of words and expressions  
> from other places mixed-in, and was quite likely a linguistic soup  
> of some variety.
>
> Here is what Wikipedia has to say on the subject:
>
> Charlemagne's native language is a matter of controversy. It was  
> probably a Germanic dialect of the Ripuarian Franks, but linguists  
> differ on its identity and chronology. Some linguists go so far as  
> to say that he did not speak Old Frankish as he was born in 742 or  
> 747, by which time Old Frankish had become extinct. Old Frankish is  
> reconstructed from its descendant, Old Low Franconian, which would  
> give rise to the Dutch language and to the modern dialects in the  
> German North Rhineland, which were dubbed Ripuarian in modern  
> times. Another important source are loanwords in Old French.  
> Linguists know very little about Old Frankish, as it is attested  
> mainly as phrases and words in the law codes of the main Frankish  
> tribes (especially those of the Salian and Ripuarian Franks), which  
> are written in Latin interspersed with Germanic elements.[5] The  
> Franconian language, which was a form of Lower German, had been  
> replaced with an Old High German form in the area comprising the  
> contemporary Southern Rhineland, The Palatinate South Hessen and  
> Northern parts of Baden-W�rttemberg and Bavaria. The present Dutch  
> language area along with the modern Ripuarian areas in the North  
> Rhine region preserved a Lower German form of Franconian dubbed Old  
> Low Franconian or Old Dutch.
>
> I'd like to think that my version is simpler, and thus suitable for  
> simple souls like you and me, although I recognise that linguistics  
> is a complex subject.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >


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