Welcome to the NavList Message Boards.

NavList:

A Community Devoted to the Preservation and Practice of Celestial Navigation and Other Methods of Traditional Wayfinding

Compose Your Message

Message:αβγ
Message:abc
Add Images & Files
    or...
       
    Reply
    Re: Portuguese shipwreck question
    From: Fred Hebard
    Date: 2009 Nov 4, 10:36 -0500

    You both are doing a good job of not yelling at each other during  
    this discussion, although some comments appear to have a barb or two  
    attached!  Congratulations.
    
    Fred Hebard
    
    On Nov 4, 2009, at 10:03 AM, Wolfgang K�berer wrote:
    > Nice, but besides the point: �lingua franca� is a term which  
    > wrongly identifies all non-Arab speaking with �Franks�: And that is  
    > not the �Frankish� language which you used to make your point,  
    > connecting it with Low German etc.
    >
    >
    >
    > But you�re right: there is confusion, but not between relevance and  
    > pedantry (which are categories that cannot be confounded anyway),  
    > but in your argument confounding the language that was spoken in  
    > territories that later belonged to France and a language that was  
    > spoken in the Med � and only called �language of the franks�. It is  
    > a common confusion, though, between the �significant� and the  
    > �signified�, so don�t despair.
    >
    >
    >
    > As always,
    >
    > Wolfgang
    >
    >
    >
    > Dr. Wolfgang K�berer
    > Wolfsgangstr. 92
    > D-60322 Frankfurt am Main
    >
    > Tel: + 49 69 95520851
    > Fax: + 49 69 558400
    > e-mail: koeberer{at}navigationsgeschichte.de
    >
    >
    >
    > Von: navlist@fer3.com [mailto:navlist@fer3.com] Im  
    > Auftrag von Peter Fogg
    > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 4. November 2009 15:41
    > An: navlist@fer3.com
    > Betreff: [NavList 10430] Re: AW: [NavList 10428] Re: AW: [NavList  
    > 10424] Re: Portuguese shipwreck question
    >
    >
    >
    > Umm...  Your quote goes:  Lingua Franca literally means "Frankish  
    > language".
    > My original statement in parenthesis was:  (literal meaning:  
    > Frankish language !).
    > Is there a difference?  That is what I said, in almost the same  
    > words.  I think.
    >
    > I then laboriously explained the common meaning of the phrase,  
    > which your quote supports, and am appropriately grateful for the  
    > additional information that the term originated as claimed (if  
    > correct).
    >
    > None of this has anything to do with 'my' conclusions, which stand  
    > thus far unchallenged.  Do try to avoid the confusion of pedantry  
    > with relevance.
    >
    > On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 12:41 AM, Wolfgang K�berer  
    >  wrote:
    >
    > Being a simple soul � and additionally a nitwit as far as  
    > linguistics is concerned � I have turned to Wikipedia, who informs  
    > us about �lingua franca� � the origin of the term and what it  
    > denoted - in the following paragraph:
    >
    >
    >
    > �Originally lingua Franca (or Sabir) referred to a mixed language  
    > composed mostly of Italian with a broad vocabulary drawn from  
    > Persian, French, Greek and Arabic. Lingua Franca literally means  
    > "Frankish language". This originated from the Arabic custom of  
    > referring to all Europeans as Franks. This mixed language was used  
    > for communication throughout the medieval and early modern Middle  
    > East[ as a diplomatic language�.
    >
    >
    >
    > That�s what I said (in other words), I think. None of your �common  
    > language of the franks�, Peter. And therefore I think that your  
    > conclusions � being based on wrong (linguistic) premises � may only  
    > be true by chance (which � as we simple souls and pedants believe �  
    > does not provide a reliable conclusion at all).
    >
    >
    >
    > As always,
    >
    > Wolfgang
    >
    >
    >
    > Dr. Wolfgang K�berer
    > Wolfsgangstr. 92
    > D-60322 Frankfurt am Main
    >
    > Tel: + 49 69 95520851
    > Fax: + 49 69 558400
    > e-mail: koeberer{at}navigationsgeschichte.de
    >
    >
    >
    > Von: navlist@fer3.com [mailto:navlist@fer3.com] Im  
    > Auftrag von Peter Fogg
    > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 4. November 2009 14:03
    > An: navlist@fer3.com
    > Betreff: [NavList 10428] Re: AW: [NavList 10424] Re: Portuguese  
    > shipwreck question
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Wolfgang K�berer schreibt:
    >
    > And as such [�self-appointed pedants extraordinaires�] let me point  
    > out that Peter�s �learned� statements about languages are nonsense,  
    > which could be explained by the fact that he looks at Europe upside  
    > down.
    >
    > You might be onto something there, Wolfgang.
    >
    > The �lingua franca� was by no means the common language of the  
    > �Franks� but a sort of pidgin language which evolved in the Middle  
    > ages around the Mediterranean through the contact of people  
    > speaking romanic languages with Arabs. And being based on romanic  
    > languages it has nothing to do with Low German.
    >
    >
    > Ah Wolfgang.  Firstly; lingua franca, as I stated, literally means  
    > 'language of the Franks'.  It has a modern common meaning in  
    > English, and perhaps also in other tongues, as the language  
    > commonly understood or spoken in some place.  You appear to be  
    > confusing this expression (in Latin?) for the common Frankish  
    > language, ie; the one most commonly understood by that disparate  
    > mob.  There may well have been a lingua franca of the Mediterranean  
    > in the Middle Ages, just as there is a lingua franca of this  
    > NavList, which is English.
    >
    > What was that Frankish language?  It was based on the Rhinish  
    > tongue, that I have been given to understand was a Germanic dialect  
    > common to the length of the Rhine River, long long ago.  It has  
    > been described as Low German.  Over time it seems to have been  
    > displaced along most of the Rhine by what evolved as modern German,  
    > with its only descendants (that I am aware of) being the modern  
    > closely-related Flemish and Dutch languages, that of course are  
    > spoken in areas around the mouth of the Rhine.
    >
    > Having (re)said all that, I have no doubt that as the commonly  
    > understood language or lingua franca of an extensive empire this  
    > Frankish-speak would have had all sorts of words and expressions  
    > from other places mixed-in, and was quite likely a linguistic soup  
    > of some variety.
    >
    > Here is what Wikipedia has to say on the subject:
    >
    > Charlemagne's native language is a matter of controversy. It was  
    > probably a Germanic dialect of the Ripuarian Franks, but linguists  
    > differ on its identity and chronology. Some linguists go so far as  
    > to say that he did not speak Old Frankish as he was born in 742 or  
    > 747, by which time Old Frankish had become extinct. Old Frankish is  
    > reconstructed from its descendant, Old Low Franconian, which would  
    > give rise to the Dutch language and to the modern dialects in the  
    > German North Rhineland, which were dubbed Ripuarian in modern  
    > times. Another important source are loanwords in Old French.  
    > Linguists know very little about Old Frankish, as it is attested  
    > mainly as phrases and words in the law codes of the main Frankish  
    > tribes (especially those of the Salian and Ripuarian Franks), which  
    > are written in Latin interspersed with Germanic elements.[5] The  
    > Franconian language, which was a form of Lower German, had been  
    > replaced with an Old High German form in the area comprising the  
    > contemporary Southern Rhineland, The Palatinate South Hessen and  
    > Northern parts of Baden-W�rttemberg and Bavaria. The present Dutch  
    > language area along with the modern Ripuarian areas in the North  
    > Rhine region preserved a Lower German form of Franconian dubbed Old  
    > Low Franconian or Old Dutch.
    >
    > I'd like to think that my version is simpler, and thus suitable for  
    > simple souls like you and me, although I recognise that linguistics  
    > is a complex subject.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > >
    
    
    --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~
    NavList message boards: www.fer3.com/arc
    Or post by email to: NavList@fer3.com
    To unsubscribe, email NavList+unsubscribe@fer3.com
    -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
    
    

       
    Reply
    Browse Files

    Drop Files

    NavList

    What is NavList?

    Join NavList

    Name:
    (please, no nicknames or handles)
    Email:
    Do you want to receive all group messages by email?
    Yes No

    You can also join by posting. Your first on-topic post automatically makes you a member.

    Posting Code

    Enter the email address associated with your NavList messages. Your posting code will be emailed to you immediately.
    Email:

    Email Settings

    Posting Code:

    Custom Index

    Subject:
    Author:
    Start date: (yyyymm dd)
    End date: (yyyymm dd)

    Visit this site
    Visit this site
    Visit this site
    Visit this site
    Visit this site
    Visit this site