Welcome to the NavList Message Boards.


A Community Devoted to the Preservation and Practice of Celestial Navigation and Other Methods of Traditional Wayfinding

Compose Your Message

Add Images & Files
    Re: Off-topic: Recommendation for "Captain Phillips"
    From: Lu Abel
    Date: 2014 Jan 15, 16:27 -0800
    Tom, I think you missed the point of the article.   The Italian Marines shot and killed two Indian fishermen who were determined to not be a threat to the ship.   AC-130, 50 Cal MG on the stern, AK47s, what does it matter?   Firepower is not the issue.

    In many parts of the world Rules of the Road and other maritime laws are routinely ignored by people trying to make a living on the water.   Earlier this year I was in Shanghai and was amazed to see that very few river barges carried running lights!   The river that Shanghai straddles is very brightly lit at night, but I found myself wondering how this incredible stream of traffic avoided collisions 10 miles upstream or 10 miles downstream where it was pitch black at night.   What if I were on a foreign-flagged vessel in the river?

    Similarly, I've heard of people being approached by fishermen trying to trade some goods while they were sailing along foreign coasts.  Pirates or simply people who don't understand that I might be afraid of pirates??

    Heck, I remember being at anchor in a small harbor in Nova Scotia and being approached by a local (likely a bit inebriated) wanting to know if I wanted to buy some fresh fish.   But I was apprehensive about him, especially when I couldn't understand his slurred words.  

    Again - the issue is not the quantity and quality of firepower.   Rather, it's when it's appropriate and legal to use it.


    On 1/15/2014 3:23 PM, Tom Sult wrote:

    Constantly loitering on station would be a fairly dramatic deterrent. They have really good glass (and other goodies) and unreal attach capability. A burst in front of the advancing vessel would be a real attention getter. And if needed they could vaporize the attaching vessel in a single bust. 

    But expensive. 

    Tom Sult
    Sent from my iPhone

    On Jan 15, 2014, at 14:43, Lu Abel <luabel{at}ymail.com> wrote:

    Here's an article to back up Frank's thoughts:


    An Italian tanker had two Italian Marines aboard, apparently to provide defense against pirates.   They shot and killed two Indian fisherman (what started the fight is not clear).   It was later determined the fishermen posed no threat to the tanker -- and now India wants to try the Marines for murder!

    The majority of proposals to provide active defense against pirates involve using private security guards, not military.  International law treats the military of other countries vastly differently than civilians, so if India is charging a couple of members of Italy's military with murder, how would they treat armed civilian guards?

    From: Frank Reed <FrankReed{at}HistoricalAtlas.com>
    To: luabel{at}ymail.com
    Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2014 10:53 AM
    Subject: [NavList] Re: Off-topic: Recommendation for "Captain Phillips"

    Gary, you wrote: "why don't you have a Ma Deuce on the stern rail?"
    If I understand you right, why weren't they armed with a nice big gun? I felt that frustration, too. Two centuries ago, it was normal to arm commercial vessels with small cannon..
    This remains a huge subject of controversy. Here's an article from a few months after the Maersk Alabama incident:
    Here's a quote from that article:
    "the laws of many nations prevent vessels from carrying weapons, historically for fear they would be used by mutineers.
    A range of maritime groups and insurers oppose arming ships because of liability issues and fears that violence could provoke an arms race with the pirates."
    Then there's the recognition problem. If we raid a Somali vessel, and they have a bunch of weapons onboard, they're pirates. Easy. But what if we change the rules. Then they can say that they are carrying weapons to defend against pirates. So now everybody has weapons. In the end, it's not too tough to decide to arm big ships, but that just forces pirates to attack small yachts. And yachts are strictly prohibited from carrying guns by most legal authorities. I gather that you can carry guns on the high seas. You just can't enter any port with them --which poses a practical problem!
    NavList message boards and member settings: www.fer3.com/NavList
    Members may optionally receive posts by email.
    To cancel email delivery, send a message to NoMail[at]fer3.com

    View and reply to this message: http://fer3.com/arc/m2.aspx?i=126393

    View and reply to this message: http://fer3.com/arc/m2.aspx?i=126402

    View and reply to this message: http://fer3.com/arc/m2.aspx?i=126412

    Browse Files

    Drop Files


    What is NavList?

    Join NavList

    (please, no nicknames or handles)
    Do you want to receive all group messages by email?
    Yes No

    You can also join by posting. Your first on-topic post automatically makes you a member.

    Posting Code

    Enter the email address associated with your NavList messages. Your posting code will be emailed to you immediately.

    Email Settings

    Posting Code:

    Custom Index

    Start date: (yyyymm dd)
    End date: (yyyymm dd)

    Visit this site
    Visit this site
    Visit this site
    Visit this site
    Visit this site
    Visit this site