Welcome to the NavList Message Boards.


A Community Devoted to the Preservation and Practice of Celestial Navigation and Other Methods of Traditional Wayfinding

Compose Your Message

Add Images & Files
    Re: Night Vision Scopes
    From: Geoffrey Kolbe
    Date: 2005 Jul 11, 07:31 +0100

    "Intensity" is the light flux per unit area per unit solid angle.
    "Brightness" is the intensity integrated over all solid angle. Intensity is
    what is conserved in any passive optical system. Brightness can indeed be
    increased. The obvious example is using a magnifying glass to burn holes in
    the school desk on a sunny day...
    Geoffrey Kolbe
    At 03:03 11/07/2005, you wrote:
    >I guess then that one cannot see extremely dim objects with the 200 inch
    >mount palomar telescope for the same reasons that you mentioned.
    >Gary LaPook
    >george huxtable wrote:
    >>Brooke Clarke wrote-
    >>>The devices commonly called "Night Vision" are light amplifiers, not IR
    >>>based scopes like were used in W.W. II.  They take the existing light
    >>>and make it brighter.  Although I have not done it, I expect that in the
    >>>middle of an ocean on a moonless night you could in fact see the horizon
    >>>with a night vision scope.
    >>>Astronomers call the optical type of scope you describe a "rich field"
    >>>scope.  That means that the exit pupil diameter is about 7 mm, which is
    >>>the diameter of a night adapted eye.  For example a 7x 50 binocular has
    >>>an objective diameter of 50 mm which when divided by the 7 power
    >>>magnification yields about 7 mm exit pupil.  Any scope whose objective
    >>>diameter divided by it's magnification that yields about 7 mm is good
    >>>for viewing with a dark adapted eye.  For daytime use where the eye's
    >>>pupil is only a few mm diameter you can use a scope with a smaller exit
    >>>pupil diameter.
    >>What Brooke says about such an optical telescope (and it applies just the
    >>same to "night binoculars") is quite correct.
    >>But there's an additional point to be made about such optical devices,
    >>which is often not appreciated, bur was touched on in earlier
    >>discussion of
    >>this topic on Nav-l. It's this-
    >>No night-glass or telescope or any other such device can do anything to
    >>enhance the brightness of a night-scene at the retina, to be any greater
    >>that what the naked-eye itself sees.
    >>A "night-glass", as Brooke explains, has a big enough objective to
    >>all the light that will go into the enlarged pupil of a dark-adapted eye,
    >>given a certain magnification. In that respect, it's better than a
    >>"day-glass", which has a much smaller objective for the same
    >>but is still quite big enough to collect all the light that can go
    >>into the
    >>much-smaller eye-pupil in daylight (only about 2mm dia. as opposed to
    >>In daylight, both these oculars will perform exactly the same. Only at
    >>night will the night-glass do better. But even then, what you see in a
    >>night-glass is no brighter than what you can see without it. In fact,
    >>somewhat less bright, because of the light-loss inherent in passage
    >>the glass surfaces.
    >>To take Brooke's example, a x7 night-glass with a 49 mm. objective can
    >>collect all the incident light falling on it and compress it into a
    >>pencil 7mm. dia, just big enough to fill the pupil of a dark-adapted eye.
    >>If the objective was bigger than 49mm, then that outgoing pencil would be
    >>wider than 7mm.,  and light would be wasted in striking the iris rather
    >>than in passing through the hole. The ratio between the diameters of the
    >>incoming pencil of parallel light (defined by the size of the objective)
    >>and the outgoing beam exiting the eyepiece is exactly the same as the
    >>magnification of the ocular, 7x in that example. Indeed, that's a
    >>valid and
    >>simple way to measure the magnification. It's universally true, and
    >>depend in any way on the details of the optical design.
    >>If we neglect any light loss in transit through the glass or in crossing
    >>its surfaces, then the night-glass collects 49 times as much light-energy
    >>to pass into the pupil, compared with the light-energy that would
    >>enter the
    >>pupil without the night-glass, simply because of the 49x increase of
    >>area.  That light now forms an image in the retina. Because of the
    >>magnification of x7, every object, focussed on the retina, occupies
    >>49x the
    >>retinal area than it did without the glass. So the light-energy per unit
    >>area on the retina, which is the definition of brightness, is no greater
    >>with the glass than without it.
    >>This conclusion seems to contradict common experience. I agree that when
    >>you approach a dark harbour, searching for unlit moored craft, a
    >>night-glass certainly SEEMS to help. In fact, it helps by making the
    >>bigger, rather than brighter. Surprising, but true. That conclusion
    >>surprised me when the question arose, when last discussed on this list.
    >>The only way to increase the surface brightness of an image, then, is
    >>a device that can actually feed additional energy, such as the
    >>scopes that Brooke refers to.
    >>>Earlier, Alexandre Eremenko wrote:
    >>>>I have never used a night vision device,
    >>>>but on a pure theoretical ground I predict
    >>>>that it will NOT help to see the sea horizon:-)
    >>>>(And for the stars and the Moon you don't need
    >>>>any night vision anyway).
    >>>>Can anyone verify this theoretical prediction?
    >>>>P.S. I mean the common modern night vision devices based on infrared
    >>>>radiation. Another tipe of "night vision scope" was invented
    >>>>in XVIII century, and this was simply a Galileo scope
    >>>>with small magnification and with large
    >>>>object lens diameter. (Approximately of the same type as
    >>>>the standard straight non prismatic scopes of modern sextants).
    >>>>These scopes indeed help with horizon or any other object at
    >>>>night simply because they collect more light.
    >> From the argument presented above, I suggest that Alex is wrong about
    >>the  Galilean "night vision scope" he describes; at least, in comparison
    >>with the light-collection of the naked-eye. It would certainly be better,
    >>at night, than a "day-glass" with a smaller objective, however.
    >>It also seems to me unlikely that his prediction on a "pure theoretical
    >>ground" of the inefficacy of an amplifying "night vision device" will
    >>water. It seems unreasonable for Alex to ask readers to verify such a
    >>questonable proposition, before he has presented any arguments in its
    >>Contact George at george@huxtable.u-net.com ,or by phone +44 1865 820222,
    >>or from within UK 01865 820222.
    >>Or by post- George Huxtable, 1 Sandy Lane, Southmoor, Abingdon, Oxon OX13
    >>5HX, UK.
    Border Barrels Ltd, Newcastleton, TD9 0SN, UK
    Tel: +44 (0)13873 76253   Fax: +44 (0)13873 76214

    Browse Files

    Drop Files


    What is NavList?

    Join NavList

    (please, no nicknames or handles)
    Do you want to receive all group messages by email?
    Yes No

    You can also join by posting. Your first on-topic post automatically makes you a member.

    Posting Code

    Enter the email address associated with your NavList messages. Your posting code will be emailed to you immediately.

    Email Settings

    Posting Code:

    Custom Index

    Start date: (yyyymm dd)
    End date: (yyyymm dd)

    Visit this site
    Visit this site
    Visit this site
    Visit this site
    Visit this site
    Visit this site