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    Re: Navlist happening
    From: George Huxtable
    Date: 2010 Nov 23, 17:11 -0000

    No surprise, that my enquiry about recent Navlist happenings has raised
    several further questions.
    
    1. I will start by turning, with some distaste, to the following paragraph
    from Frank Reed-
    
    "I note that neither you nor Denny emailed me off-list to inquire. Why
    would that be, George?? Douglas Denny did not ask to have his posting
    privileges restored (though they have been already for over a week). I'm
    surprised by that if he's really so interested in posting something. From
    you, however, it's not really that much of a surprise. You're well-known
    for taking pleasure in dirty laundry."
    
    Those are disgraceful words to come from the "moderator" of a mailing list,
    in response to valid, legitimate, and respectably-worded questions, from a
    list member, about a matter which may well be of interest to several other
    members. That's the sort of unpleasant language that a moderator worth his
    salt would immediately stamp upon: not utter himself. It is, however,
    typical of the sort of personal smear we have come to expect from Frank
    Reed. I request that those words be withdrawn, though I don't expect it to
    happen.
    
    Why should Frank Reed resent such questions being asked? What
    "dirty-laundry" does he have to hide?
    
    2. I have asked what actual offence Douglas Denny had committed, and the
    reply was-
    "After his last outburst, in which he attacked various people, Douglas
    Denny told me that he would ignore any rules about posting, and declared
    that he didn't care to be part of this group anyway (and let's be clear --
    this was the third time that Douglas Denny announced that he was 'not
    interested in being a member of a club that would have somebody like him as
    a member' --paraphrasing a famous comedian)."
    
    So I ask again- for what actual breach of Navlist rules was the discipline
    incurred? A stated intention to ignore rules is not, at that stage, a
    breach. Or was he simply penalised for cheeking the head-prefect? Let's be
    clear, about what happened.
    
    3. Frank next wrote-
    "I then emailed him and told him that his posting privileges were suspended
    for seven days. NOTE: these were ONLY his posting privileges from the
    NavList message boards. His email access was never affected. He is fibbing
    if he has said that he received no notice of this."
    
    Frank tells us he sent that email, but provides no details. Douglas has
    said that he received no such communication, and has since confirmed that
    to me. In the present state of email communication, beset as it is by spam
    filters, I would first consider whether that email had somehow got lost in
    the ether, along the way. But no, Frank immediately accuses him of
    "fibbing"., of telling a deliberate untruth. As it has now become the basis
    of such an unpleasant accusation, we need to discover more, from Frank, who
    appears to be the only one with any knowledge of that email. When, exactly,
    was it sent: who, exactly, was it addressed to: what, exactly, were its
    contents?
    
    4.  Next-
    "After receiving those two rants and realizing that Denny had not calmed
    down at all, I decided he needed another week off. After that, his posting
    privileges were restored."
    
    So it seems that after claiming to have warned Douglas of a one-week
    suspension, Frank arbitrarily then decided to double the sentence. Did he
    then send a further notice of that increase, or leave him in the dark? When
    his posting privileges were later restored, was he informed about that?
    
    4. As I mentioned in an earlier posting, Douglas had posted on the subject
    "Graphs of lunar distances" on 26 October, and Frank issued a dismissive
    response to it, 2 days later. However, by that stage, it seems that Frank
    had barred Douglas from further posting, so Frank then know, though nobody
    else did, that there could be no response from Douglas to the "last word"
    on the subject, that Frank had just awarded himself. Frank chose not to
    tell us that. To me, that's underhand behaviour, smacking of abuse of
    power, and I wonder whether Frank is proud of those actions.
    
    5. This takes us back to the rather curious circumstances of the capture,
    by Frank and Navlist, of the then-existing mailing-list Nav-L, some years
    ago now. I, along with other Nav-L members, expressed concern about Frank's
    suitability in the role of moderator, as he was likely to be in the thick
    of any argument. He allayed that concern, to some extent, by stating that
    all such decisions would be made jointly between him and Dan Allen, a
    listmember held in some respect, whose own contributions have recently
    become infrequent. So I ask whether, before any decision about suspending
    Douglas Denny was made, Dan was consulted and gave his agreement.
    
    ===============
    
    Let me make it clear that it's not Douglas Denny that I am arguing for
    here. He somewhat intemperate choice of language has brought on him much of
    his own difficulties, and makes him a rather unlikely martyr. I am arguing
    for better, and less capricious, governance of Navlist, in the expectation
    that the next victim of such treatment may well be me.
    
    George.
    
    contact George Huxtable, at george{at}hux.me.uk
    or at +44 1865 820222 (from UK, 01865 820222)
    or at 1 Sandy Lane, Southmoor, Abingdon, Oxon OX13 5HX, UK.
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Frank Reed" 
    To: 
    Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 4:39 AM
    Subject: [NavList] Re: Navlist happening
    
    
    Hello George.
    
    After his last outburst, in which he attacked various people, Douglas Denny
    told me that he would ignore any rules about posting, and declared that he
    didn't care to be part of this group anyway (and let's be clear -- this was
    the third time that Douglas Denny announced that he was 'not interested in
    being a member of a club that would have somebody like him as a
    member' --paraphrasing a famous comedian). I then emailed him and told him
    that his posting privileges were suspended for seven days. NOTE: these were
    ONLY his posting privileges from the NavList message boards. His email
    access was never affected. He is fibbing if he has said that he received no
    notice of this. This was not a "spanking", just a time-out. He then sent
    two more long-winded, incompetent rants, attacking me personally, and also
    ignoring everything that has been written to him about the navigation
    issues at hand, and demanded that they be posted to NavList, despite being
    told that he had a seven-day vacation. If I failed to post them, this would
    qualify as "censorship" or so he said (last December, another NavList
    member, whom I won't name publicly, asserted that I was comparable to the
    People's Republic of China since I had "censored" his NavList
    messages --that case was actually an issue involving Google Groups and part
    of the reason I moved us off of that service). After receiving those two
    rants and realizing that Denny had not calmed down at all, I decided he
    needed another week off. After that, his posting privileges were restored.
    UNDERSTOOD? He can post right now. His posts will, however, be moderated
    for some brief period of time.
    
    I note that neither you nor Denny emailed me off-list to inquire. Why would
    that be, George?? Douglas Denny did not ask to have his posting privileges
    restored (though they have been already for over a week). I'm surprised by
    that if he's really so interested in posting something. From you, however,
    it's not really that much of a surprise. You're well-known for taking
    pleasure in dirty laundry.
    
    NOW, why didn't I "inform NavList" of this seven-day vacation for Mr.
    Denny? First, because it was quite temporary. Many people on NavList go a
    week or two without posting including me, and you, yourself, George.
    Second, and more importantly, because it's not public business. It's most
    unfortunate that you have chosen to make it public rather than just asking
    me off-list.
    
    By the way, this is only the second person on NavList, in the four years
    that I've been managing it, whose posting privileges have EVER been
    suspended for any period of time (So Douglas, that's a feather you can
    stick in your cap). As I have explained many times, banning or suspending
    people is almost completely ineffective since only email addresses can be
    blocked, not people. The other person was suspended a bit more permanently
    and this ALSO without informing NavList members generally. So, George
    Huxtable, see if you can guess who that other person was... someone near
    and dear to your heart... Do not post your guess to NavList, but you're
    welcome to email me OFF-LIST if you wish to thank me. Just a reminder, my
    preferred email: FrankReed[at]HistoricalAtlas.com.
    
    -FER
    
    
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