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Re: Nansen question
From: John Huth
Date: 2009 Dec 12, 10:51 -0500
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From: John Huth
Date: 2009 Dec 12, 10:51 -0500
George -
Here's the quote from the "Some results..." article. I'm assuming that in the more lengthy report, he talks about it in detail. Already this is interesting, as many lecturers in oceanography say that he observed icebergs floating, a statement that seems to have taken on a life of its own.
I'll try to dig up the discussion in 2005. I wasn't a member back then, and I know I should search the archives etc, but it's sometimes easier to just pose the question in "real time".
I used the google books advanced search and put in the title of the article - it's been digitized.
Thx.
JH
“But, according to my opinion, it is not merely chance winds which influence the drift of the ice; I thought, too, that at times there was evidence of a slight current in the water, under the ice, which also went in about the same direction. Nor do I think that the drift of the ice quite coincides with the direction of the prevailing winds. I had the impression that it often carried us a little further north than did the latter; but our abundant material is not yet calculated out, and before this is done it will not be possible to say anything for certain on the subject.”[i]
[i] F. Nansen, “Some Results of the Norwegian Arctic Expedition, 1893-96”, The Geographical Journal, Vol. 9, No. 5, The Royal Geographical Society (Great Britain) p. 495 May, 1897
On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 10:23 AM, George Huxtable <george@hux.me.uk> wrote:
There's an alternative to explaining Ekman transport. As with many other
topics, it's been discussed previously on this list (well, on its
predecessor, actually- Nav-L) If you look at the exchanges around 19 Jan
2005, you will find discussions of Ekman spiral, including some particularly
wise words emanating from "Gadus"; actually the remarkably well-informed
Trevor Kenchington.
I would be interested to read Nansen's words on that topic. How did you get
to them?
Yours, George.
contact George Huxtable, at george@hux.me.uk
or at +44 1865 820222 (from UK, 01865 820222)
or at 1 Sandy Lane, Southmoor, Abingdon, Oxon OX13 5HX, UK.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Apache Runner" <apacherunner@gmail.com>
NavList+@fer3.com<NavList%2B@fer3.com>To: <navlist@fer3.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2009 2:47 PM
Subject: Re: [NavList 11097] Nansen question
| Thanks, George. In the "Some Results..." article, there is the first
| actual mention of the idea that led to Ekman transport. It took a bit of
| digging to get there.
|
| The Ekman theory is a reasonable approximation, but it leaves out all
sorts
| of issues like the effect of turbulence etc. It goes a long way to
| explaining the structure of gyres in oceanic currents, but it's not the
full
| story.
|
| If anyone's interested, I can post the quote from Nansen, but then I'd
have
| to explain Ekman transport....which might be more than you want.
|
| Thanks,
|
| John Huth
|
|
| On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 7:00 AM, George Huxtable <george@hux.me.uk> wrote:
|
| > A follow-up to my earlier posting, which attempted to answer Apache
| > Runner's
| > question about the origin of the Ekman theory of wind drift.
| >
| > I suggested that Nansen's publication "Some results of the Norwegian
Arctic
| > Expredition 1893-96" might be productive, but a look in Abebooks tells
me
| > that slim volume is just reprinted from an item in the Journal of the
Royal
| > Geographical Society, presumably for 1897. So that may be findable in an
| > academic library.
| >
| > But I've also discovered that the results were gathered into a series of
| > (at
| > least) 6 volumes, "The Norwegian North Polar Expedition 1893-1896
| > Scientific
| > Results Vol 1", etc, edited by Nansen (presumably in English). These
were
| > reprinted by Greenwood Press, New York, around 1970, so should be
available
| > in libraries. And I see that Ekman made at least one contribution to
that
| > series (on "Dead-water", in vol 3).
| >
| > I remember learning about the Ekman theory, in an oceanography course in
| > the
| > early 1950s (and being a bit sceptical).
| >
| > George.
| >
| > contact George Huxtable, at george@hux.me.uk
| > or at +44 1865 820222 (from UK, 01865 820222)
| > or at 1 Sandy Lane, Southmoor, Abingdon, Oxon OX13 5HX, UK.
| > ----- Original Message -----
| > From: "George Huxtable" <george@hux.me.uk>
| > To: <navlist@fer3.com>
| > Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 12:47 AM
| > Subject: Re: [NavList 11079] Nansen question
| >
| >
| > | Yes, it was on the Fram expedition of 1893-96, , when Nansen made the
| > | observation sthat led to the Ekman spiral, according to "The Oceans",
| > | Sverdup, Johnson, and Fleming (1942), page 492.
| > |
| > | I have the two volumes of Nansen's "Furthest North", but a very-quick
| > scan
| > | from the index has only led to passages which seem to imply that ice
was
| > | drifting straight downwind, not at an angle. But Nansen says that
further
| > | publications will follow with the scientific details. He later
published
| > | which might be
| > | productive, but I don't know it.
| > |
| > | George
| > |
| > | contact George Huxtable, at george@hux.me.uk
| > | or at +44 1865 820222 (from UK, 01865 820222)
| > | or at 1 Sandy Lane, Southmoor, Abingdon, Oxon OX13 5HX, UK.
| > | ----- Original Message -----
| > | From: "Apache Runner" <apacherunner@gmail.com>
| > | To: <NavList@fer3.com>
| > | Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2009 11:35 PM
| > | Subject: [NavList 11077] Nansen question
| > |
| > |
| > || Does anyone know the original publication of Nansen's work that led
to
| > the
| > || Eckman theory of currents?
| > ||
| > || As I recall, he noticed that icebergs moved at some angle (30-40
| > degrees)
| > || with respect to the direction that the wind was blowing them and
deduced
| > || that it was due to the combination of the wind and the Coriolis
effect.
| > || That observation was the basis of the Eckman theory. I'm curious
about
| > | the
| > || expedition this was sighted on. I think it was the famous Polar
drift
| > | of
| > || the Fram, but I'm not sure. I don't recall seeing it written in
| > Furthest
| > || North (quite a tale, too), so I'm assuming it was a scientific
| > | publication.
| > ||
| > || Anyone know?
| > ||
| > || --
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| >
|
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