# NavList:

## A Community Devoted to the Preservation and Practice of Celestial Navigation and Other Methods of Traditional Wayfinding

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Re: Marq St. Hilaire - Altitude intercept method
From: Andr�s Ruiz
Date: 2007 Oct 26, 10:46 +0200

```Gary, my question for you is: are you saying I and writing silly things????

Language is for providing communication to people. Not is the same:
"St. Hilaire's method created the exact same LOP as Sumner's method" or
"Sumner and St. Hilaire methods produce the same LOP" or -In the practice of
old celestial navigation the result of using Sumner or St-Hilaire LoPs is the
near the same assumed usual circumstances.-

2+2= 4
1.99+2.001 approx 4

Anybody with good background knowledge in navigation can filter the
information and read between the lines, but write without rigor can confuse
to the beginners in CN.

Of course navigation is an art, but also a science and the advances in
sciences arise by understanding previous knowledge and acquiring new one.
Are you agree?

To test the discrepancy between the to lines, imagine you are in the middle of
the North Atlantic Ocean and a two days storm apart from your course several
miles away. Now your DR position is far away from the true one. The
differences of the results using the two methods depends on the assumed
position, and increase, as the distance between the true and assumed position
do.

________________________________________
De: NavList@fer3.com [mailto:NavList@fer3.com] En nombre de Gary J. LaPook
Enviado el: viernes, 26 de octubre de 2007 9:48
Para: NavList@fer3.com
Asunto: [NavList 3620] Re: Marq St. Hilaire - Altitude intercept method

Gary LaPook writes:

My question for you is "how many angels� to you want to get dancing on the head of your pin?"

You are right, one line is a chord and one is a tangent but to the available
level of accuracy of measuring the altitude and of plotting it on a chart
they are the same for all practical purposes. For example, if you plotted two
positions determined by the Sumner method 30 NM apart and drew the line
between them making one LOP. Then you calculate the same LOP using St.
Hilaire for a spot in the center of the two Sumner positions you are right,
you would end up with two different LOPs that parallel each other. However,
for any altitude up to 77� they would be less than .1 NM apart, that's right,
one tenth of one nautical mile! How thick is the line your pencil makes on
the chart? How accurate are all of your sextant sights? Do you always achieve
one tenth of a minute accuracy? People on this list talk about getting .5
minute of accuracy as a very good result on a boat and with that level of
accuracy the difference between a Sumner line and a St. Hilaire line only
becomes an issue for sights above 86�. How many times have you taken sights
above 86�? Navigation is the art and science of directing a vessel or
aircraft safely from one place to another, it is not a mathematical exercise
that you do at home on a computer to an accuracy of 42 significant figures.
And I don't use "the analytic equation of each LoP on a Mercator chart" I
draw a pencil line that has thickness and some level of inaccuracy in
azimuth. Everything plotted on a chart is an approximation to some extent and
for navigation purposes (not theoretical discussion purposes) the Sumner and
St. Hilaire methods produce the same LOP.

gl

Andres Ruiz wrote:
In messages: [NavList 3572], [NavList 3588], [NavList 3596] There is an error of concept.

Gary is not absolutely correct.

St. Hilaire's method created the exact same LOP as Sumner's method but
only required doing the computation one time, saving work and reducing
the chance for an error.

The Sumner and the St-Hilaire LoPs are not the same. One is secant to the
circle of equal altitude and other is tangent. This means that the points in
common between the CoP and the each LoP are different. If You get the
analytic equation of each LoP on a Mercator chart You can see that the two
lines are not the same.

For more details see the attached PDF.

Please, I want to hear more opinions.

Andr�s Ruiz
http://www.geocities.com/andresruizgonzalez

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