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    Re: Line of Position Fix
    From: Brad Morris
    Date: 2012 Oct 19, 20:24 -0700

    Hi Debra

    I thought you were Aussie!  What other nationality would have an E as wombat, roo?

    Patience!  You have decided to undertake one one of the classically most difficult undertakings, which may be known as spherical mathematics.  Others know this a celestial navigation.  Truth be told, they are the same.

    On this list you will find them all.  Byron is actually a navigating innovator.  He's published & has his innovationd accepted by the US military.  Chief Franklin is one of a kindn  Others of us have published texts, well accepted as gospel.  Frank maintains the navList, but is a true astronomical mathlete.  Lunars anyone?

    Do not be intimidated!  These gentlemen are here to help. Really!

    Welcome aboard!

    Now to the basics, and don't be shy.  Your instrument?  Your location (lat,Lon)?  Finally, what do you wish to know?  Pish Posh.  Let us help you and ...

    Welcome aboard!

    Best and Kindest Regards

    On Oct 19, 2012 11:06 PM, "Debra hillman" <wombatroo@hotmail.com> wrote:
    Many thanks for everyones sugestions .Im at mackay Australia.Learning mainly from Joseph sellars "Kindergarten of celestial navigation.I  have had lots of crazy days when i dont seem to grasp the right answers,then i keep at it , then low and behold I get it  !  . I  need  to know how to learn celestial navigation this way for some reason  .Its just to easy for, anybody to  turn on a piece of technology , connected to a satellite to find their position in the world.!!!!

    Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 18:52:28 -0400
    Subject: [NavList] Re: Line of Position Fix
    From: bradley.r.morris@gmail.com
    To: NavList@fer3.com

    I have no wish to hijack Debra's straight forward questions into a discussion of the quality of the celestial fix as it pertains to the cocked hat.
    Paragraph 2609 does not talk about your fix being inside or outside the hat.  It doesn't speak to the accuracy of that fix, that's only available to us in the GPS age.  The purpose of the multi-body, multi-observation fix is to obtain a sense of its consistency.  If your LOPs seem to cross about or around a common location, then indeed, that's consistent within itself.  Two observations, one of each body, will be less consistent, reproducible and most likely prone to error.

    Best Regards
    On Oct 18, 2012 6:42 PM, "Apache Runner" <apacherunner@gmail.com> wrote:
    Not that I have anything useful to add on the cocked hat issue, but my students did triangulation with compasses as an assignment last week.   We had our fair share of funkiness with three LOP's giving three different locations, even when they factored in what they supposed their compass uncertainty was, there were often three non-overlapping regions of uncertainty (or certainty?).   

    We used backpacker-type compasses, and I swear it is next to impossible to do better than +/- 10 degrees with those blamed things.

    On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 5:37 PM, Lu Abel <luabel@ymail.com> wrote:
    I agree that even on land LOPs are likely to be off by a mile or even more and so fixes have that uncertainty; it's just the nature of celestial navigation.

    But I have to question the claim that getting three LOPs will give a better fix.  As someone pointed out in a discussion on this list a few years ago, there's only a one in eight chance of a fix even being inside the cocked hat and there's no certitude at all that the fix will be in the center of the hat.

    From: Brad Morris <bradley.r.morris@gmail.com>
    To: NavList@fer3.com
    Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 12:45 PM
    Subject: [NavList] Re: Line of Position Fix

    Hi Debra
    The best two times of the day are the civil twilights.  Those are just before dawn and just after sunset.  The best bodies to use are the 57 navigational stars.
    Just as a note, you will want 3 bodies in your fix.  It is unlikely that 2 LOPs will cross at your position, in general, and 3 will produced a 'cocked hat'.
    Best Regards
    Brad Morris
    On Oct 18, 2012 3:23 PM, "Debra Hillman" <wombatroo@hotmail.com> wrote:
    Could somebody help me with my problem . I am learning on my own at present from books on celestial navigation.I need to get a fix with two lines of position but not sure which celestial body other than the sun and the best times of the day to achieve the fix.

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