NavList:
A Community Devoted to the Preservation and Practice of Celestial Navigation and Other Methods of Traditional Wayfinding
Re: Lat/Lon by "Noon Sun" & The Noon Fix PROVE IT
From: Brad Morris
Date: 2009 Apr 29, 14:30 -0400
From: Brad Morris
Date: 2009 Apr 29, 14:30 -0400
Hi Jim I offer that the observer could simply just take data points every 5 minutes and let the computer fit the curve. Dave Walden did just that and the curve fit eliminates the requirement that we be centered around LAN or that the data be in some particular format. Dave used a least squares fit, one form of regression analysis. There are other forms of regression analysis, least squares is just one. When we perform curve fits, iterative analysis or any other mathematics which would require a computer, simply due to the great quantity of computation, we make the navigational method more black box. Witness Jeremy's use of the 25 observations in the rapid fire fix method we have been discussing. Jeremy, through no fault of his own, is limited to what is exposed to the user (him). Without a lot of digging, the internals are hidden. That's a black box. In this case, your form of regression analysis is hidden to you. It may be a least squares fit, it may be something else. That's black box. The most extreme example of this is the GPS. We look at it and it tells us our position. That's black box. Re-examine that in light of the method you offer. The method offers up a determination of the latitude and longitude from a noon (rapid fire) series of sights. If your method requires a computer and complicated regression analysis, why not just use the GPS? Clearly, based upon comments from others, this type of fix predates computers, so it should be possible to manually determine. The improvement you offer has to do with the structuring of the data and fairing straight lines, an easy day compared to a curve fit. I don't expect that the method will provide the same statistical level of accuracy of a least squares curve fit. It's nonsense to believe otherwise, as each observer put his personal spin on the line fairing. We expect them to be "in the ballpark" and "about right", not perfect. Give your method a fair twirl! Best Regards Brad -----Original Message----- From: NavList@fer3.com [mailto:NavList@fer3.com] On Behalf Of James N Wilson Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 11:56 AM To: NavList@fer3.com Subject: [NavList 8101] Re: Lat/Lon by "Noon Sun" & The Noon Fix PROVE IT Brad: I'm sure that least squares is better, but I used regression analysis because that was what I had. I'm a complete novice at this mathematical curve fitting. I was grasping at straws to avoid asking for more data points. I've looked at a good many student sight plots, and they are almost uniformly on a straight line. But they are taken with a sharp horizon. I suspect that a hazy horizon would yield the kind of data that George generated. Being curious, I immediately tried this new toy on my ancient data example. It placed the ascending line in exactly the same place that I had eyeballed it, and had only a slight difference in the descending line. The net result was a slight improvement in accuracy. In eyeballing sights, I tend to throw out ones quite a ways from the trend, whereas any curve fitting algorithm will use them all. In looking at the final results, sights taken in runs centered around LAN would be more utile than ones taken around highest altitude. That would eliminate the extrapolation. But, as George points out, the observer doesn't know when LAN is yet. More sights could be taken, so that the latter ones would avoid extending the data lines outside of the range measured. I think that I still have a lot to learn. Jim Wilson ____________________________________________________________ Save $10 on Flowers and Gifts! Shop now at www.ftd.com/16714 "Confidentiality and Privilege Notice The information transmitted by this electronic mail (and any attachments) is being sent by or on behalf of Tactronics; it is intended for the exclusive use of the addressee named above and may constitute information that is privileged or confidential or otherwise legally exempt from disclosure. If you are not the addressee or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to same, you are not authorized to retain, read, copy or disseminate this electronic mail (or any attachments) or any part thereof. If you have received this electronic mail (and any attachments) in error, please call us immediately and send written confirmation that same has been deleted from your system. Thank you." --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ Navigation List archive: www.fer3.com/arc To post, email NavList@fer3.com To , email NavList-@fer3.com -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---