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    Re: Lat/Lon by "Noon Sun" & The Noon Fix PROVE IT
    From: Brad Morris
    Date: 2009 Apr 13, 15:18 -0400

    Gentlemen
    
    I suggest we play a little game. I would like to call it Name that Tune, but I am
    sure that the TV moguls will sue me, so let us call the game "Prove It".
    
    I cannot differentiate between hyperbole and truth in the previous postings.
    I am willing to listen to reason and follow logical paths, so perhaps we can determine
    the truth.
    
    George - Please post ONE example where this method doesn't work.  You have claimed
    that Lat/Lon by Noon Sun Method doesn't work at high latitudes (if I read your postings correctly).
    Fine.  Suppose your DR is around the Antarctic Circle.  Make the declination as north as
    you would like it, within reason, as nobody expects this to work if you cannot see the
    sun.  Provide the NavList and therefore Frank with the 13 altitudes and supposed times.
    You may even skew the data by injecting a course and a speed, up to 20 knots, your choice.
    
    There will be claims that on that one example doesn't disprove the method.  Frank//Jim - perhaps
    you can clarify when this method is applicable and when it is not.  There is nothing wrong
    with a method that only works part of the time.  I can think of a few examples right away
            1) Lunars at the time of the new and full moon
            2) von Littrow's Apparent Time at Sea, at high latitudes
            3) Capt. Thoms, Longitude by Declination of the Moon
    
    Frank - WHEN George provides the list with his example, you will kindly solve for Lat and Lon.
    That is, determine George's Lat and Lon, within the stated accuracy.
    
    I would really like to see Jim Wilson state his determination of Lat and Lon, based on his
    method.  Please don't disclose how you derive it, I would rather purchase your book.  Jim - if
    you don't want to disclose your answer to the list before Frank does, I can understand that.  I can
    also understand if Frank doesn't want to give you a hint on his result.  In this case,
    provide the answers to me off list and I will post them when I have both.
    
    After both gentlemen post their solutions, George will respond in kind, posting his starting Lat Lon
    and showing how each of the altitudes is correct.  That should be a fairly easy day.
    
    Step 1:  I have laid the challenge.  Step complete.
    Step 2:  The challenged: Frank, George and Jim; will agree to participate.  Step Open
    Step 3:  Frank will state any limitations to the method in applicability, should there be any.
               I have not seen any, but upon reflection, Frank may wish to state some.
    Step 4:  George will provide his deal breaker test, within the limitations
    Step 5:  Frank and Jim provide independent positional determination of Lat and Lon, based
               upon George's altitudes and times.
    Step 6:  George will disclose his lat and lon
    Step 7:  The NavList judges the results.
    
    Then the hyperbole will melt away and the game of Prove It will be concluded.
    
    If any of the participants doesn't think this is fair, then please post why.
    
    Prove It!
    
    Best Regards
    Brad
    
    
    
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