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Re: Joshua Slocum, Victor Slocum, and lunars
From: Wolfgang K�berer
Date: 2009 Mar 3, 23:27 +0100
From: Wolfgang K�berer
Date: 2009 Mar 3, 23:27 +0100
Frank, just a simple question: Do you still maintain your claim that "that famous lunarian expert Baron von Zach ... was astounded to discover that the whole crew knew and worked lunars"? Your post just deals with the cook. You simply cannot draw your above conclusion from that simple story. Neither can you draw further conclusions about the nautical proficiency of (North)American seamen at that period. Or do you withdraw your statements now? And your remark: "So because you never managed to find the original article, you have concluded that there WAS NO original article?? I can think of another explanation..." is obviously besides the point. I stated the simple fact that I have been unable to find the source that you seem to rely on. You did not give it; just a saucy tale ("the whole crew knew and worked lunars") which could not be believed by anybody in his right mind. As long as I cannot find the source of such an outrageous statement I am free - even compelled - to doubt that it - or its factual basis - exists. That's the basis of rational science - nomothetical or ideographic - since the Age of Enlightenment (at least this side of the pond). Apart from that you have - as ever - insinuated that I have drawn a certain conclusion - which I expressly did not. Just read again what I wrote. I'd be obliged, though, if you could supply the citation from the "Correspondance Astronomique, Geographique, Hydrographique, et Statistique", Vol. 4, 62 - 65. We could then get into a more serious discussion with a common textual basis. By the way: Your information that von Zach "had moved to Genoa and/or Marseilles (?) around 1814" seems incorrect, too. According to my information he lived in Marseille since 1809 and since 1815 in Genoa; but that is of little consequence here. Just shows your carelessness with facts again. And you wrote: "First, Zach read and wrote English, no doubt about that." I'd be obliged if you could prove that - beyond reasonable doubt. That " HE HIMSELF records his conversations with the members of the crew of Cleopatra's Barge in his article in the "Correspondance" doesn't mean anything. And that "It does not appear from his account that he dealt with a translator" circumvents my argument: if you have only a limited command of a foreign language and do not use a translator you are more prone to misunderstandings than if do use one. I am not aware of a tradition of mentioning the use of a translator in such written accounts of travels and visits of that period anyway, so the conclusion you are suggesting lacks any FACTUAL basis. To my comment: "And: 2) we'd have to take at face value that what he was told was true, because von Zach doesn't say that he actually saw the greatest part of the seamen use the sextant and make nautical calculations." you remarked: "Yes indeed. They may have lied. It may have been a bizarre conspiracy to fool the astronomer..." What a cheap shot! And how it missed, because the french text you now quote again only deals with the cook. What about "the whole crew" you have been harping on? Same goes for your following intended rebuttal: "Again, von Zach asked direct questions that would reveal a mere boast and got answers that genuinely surprised him for their accuracy and detail. He examined the notebooks. He saw the calculations for himself." Oh my: He only talked about the black cook. Finally you say: "It's too bad that this dismal and completely speculative theory, that the story was a legend, has been dredged up from the abyss once again." That's funny! The idea that a story is a legend to be "completely speculative". I always thought that it is the other way around: legends bear the burden of proof (and succumb to it mostly). And who would believe that the story that the whole crew of "Cleopatra's Barge" knew and worked lunars is anything but a legend? Good night Wolfgang --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ Navigation List archive: www.fer3.com/arc To post, email NavList@fer3.com To , email NavList-@fer3.com -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---