NavList:
A Community Devoted to the Preservation and Practice of Celestial Navigation and Other Methods of Traditional Wayfinding
Re: Exercise #9 Star Time
From: Jeremy C
Date: 2008 Jun 5, 04:09 EDT
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From: Jeremy C
Date: 2008 Jun 5, 04:09 EDT
--- Anabasis <jcaoy@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Your methodology is very strange to me for the sunset numbers, and
> gives you the wrong answers.
Interesting, because it seems to work for me (at least here in the
western longitudes) - I've actually been doing some sunset/twilight
calculations lately for practice, and they seem to follow the "real
world" situation pretty accurately.
I'll have to check this from home tomorrow (I'm at work and don't have
my notes in front of me), but I did run my numbers through Navigator
and it agreed with me (within a few tenths on some of the calculations,
of course).
> Your methodology is very strange to me for the sunset numbers, and
> gives you the wrong answers.
Interesting, because it seems to work for me (at least here in the
western longitudes) - I've actually been doing some sunset/twilight
calculations lately for practice, and they seem to follow the "real
world" situation pretty accurately.
I'll have to check this from home tomorrow (I'm at work and don't have
my notes in front of me), but I did run my numbers through Navigator
and it agreed with me (within a few tenths on some of the calculations,
of course).
-----------------------------------
-JCA I can't explain this, as the sun did set basically when I said it
would, around 6:35 PM and shot at 7 PM ZT. I too ran it through my
computer. I hope I didn't give incorrect basic information. Still
you have ZT of sunset well after 8 PM which is definitely incorrect.
> I got 1907 for NT, but I’m not going to quibble. What is wrong is
> that this is the Time in LAT
I'm not sure what "LAT" is, but the times in the NA are UT/Z unless I
don't remember correctly (?).
I made an error here. LAT is Local apparent time (like as in
LAN). However, the Sunrise and sunset are in Local MEAN time (LMT), not
Zone time or UTC. This is the time based on the "average" sun and varies
from Zone Time based on your difference in Longitude from the Zone Meridian (in
my case 150 deg East. This is where that Arc to time stuff comes in.
Since I am west of my zone meridian, my ZT of sunset etc will be later then the
NA tables will tell you.
--------------------
Hopefully the navigator would be ready to shoot well before then,
so
our minute of time difference shouldn't matter... ;-)
our minute of time difference shouldn't matter... ;-)
------------------------
-JCA It is the way we interpolate things, and you're right, you'd better be
ready long before that lol.
> What is wrong is that this is the Time in LAT which must be
> converted to ZT before use.
Again, not knowing what "LAT" is I can't discuss this one way or
another, but as I understand it all of the times on the NA page
(sunrise/sunset/twilights/meridian passage/GHA/etc.) are all in UT/Z.
> These times are only good on the Zone reference meridians, including
> Greenwich (divisible evenly by 15).
Correct, and the arc-to-time conversion changes that time to the UT/Z
time at the given DR longitude position. Applying the ZD correction
brings the time back to local zone time (for the convenience of the
navigator, but not used in the LHA Aries calculation).
> Here is where we get really different. The correction from LAT
> to ZT should be fairly small (<1 hr) if we are keeping the correct
> zone description.
Aha - I think the difference here is from the different way we we
(apparently) calculate local times for suneset/twilights.
> The trouble with the second is that you have to apply the correction
> in the correct direction which can be confusing, especially if you
> are in East Longitude and are from the Western Hemisphere.
Correct - and since events happen earlier in eastern longitudes you'd
subtract the (absolute value of) the ZD from the UT/Z time given in the
NA to change the time to the local time zone.
> I got 146 degrees since we add 22’ longitude to 34.7’ GHA to get 56.7
> which is close to 60, and we carry the one to 145 to equal 146.
I'll have to look at my worksheet tomorrow to see how I arrived at that
LHA, but I'm reasonably sure that I remembered to add 1 whole degree to
it.
> I also use Pub 249 Vol 1 but Epoch 2010 (available online).
Aha, wasn't aware that 2010 was out yet (though it might not be in
printed form yet) - thanks for the info.
> Obviously since my LHA is different from yours, there will be
> slightly different results:
Agreed.
>> correction for precession and nutation
> This is correct, but not necessary for precalculation as we
> only need an approximate Hs and Zn to find the body.
Ah, seems like you mentioned getting Hc and Zn - thought you'd meant to
get values for the final sight reduction, but you're correct that an
approximate Hs/Zn will work to get the body into the sextant's field of
view.
> Also, I was taught to only apply this correction in off-epoch years
> to the actual fix instead of the LOP’s (unless there is just one LOP
> of course).
According to the instructions in my copy of Pub. 249, the correction
can be applied to either the LOP or the fix itself (and personally I'd
rather move just the final fix than the several LOPs used to determine
it) - less time, and less prone to errors.
> The point of pre-calculating stars at sea is so that you can go out
> and just point the sextant in the correct Azimuth, then the star just
> pops into view. A tiny adjustment on the micrometer drum and you
> take your sight.
I've tried to do that from my front/back yard in recent weeks (using an
approximate eye-level on the neighbor's houses) but so far I've only
been able to make it work for a couple of the selected stars (there
isn't much light pollution where I live, but it's still not the same as
being out on the open water away from civilization).
> I can shoot a round of stars in under 10 minutes, and am just usually
> waiting for the dimmer ones to appear. For this round, I
> shot 5 bodies in just over 7 minutes.
How many shots of each star do you usually take? I've heard conflicting
philosophies on this - one says to take ~3 of each star, the other says
just to take one of all of them (assuming they're all in view) and any
errors will be obvious when the resulting LOP doesn't land reasonably
close to where the others cross.
I shoot one each and throw out the ones that don't work. In my line
of work, I am reasonably confident in my accuracy of shooting to give me a
precise fix most of the times. In fact, I "feel" when I have a bad
shot. I can't explain it, but I know instinctively. I also "feel"
when I've nailed one. In any case, I don't have time to waste, especially
in the Tropics where the horizon fades fast in the PM, to shoot 2-3 shots of
each star. I shoot one and move on, then put a fix down. With the
computer, the whole process takes about 15 minutes. Considerably longer
when using tables. Although with star fixes, I tend to use 249 if I am
using Tables. 229 is just too slow with multiple LOP's, but I have done
many of them in school.
I will be interested to see where your notes take us in this one.
Jeremy
Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.
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