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    Re: Celesital Navigation Through Clouds
    From: Greg R_
    Date: 2009 Dec 20, 18:05 -0800
    Mike Burkes wrote:
     
    > just bringing the AN 5851 Mk5 will overgross a 172!
     
    Not quite sure I follow you there, since the 5851 only weighs ~7 lbs. (and that's the shipping weight) according to the Celestaire catalog:
    http://celestaire.com/pdf/AircraftSextants.pdf
     
    --
    GregR
     
     
    ----- Original Message -----
    Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 12:35 PM
    Subject: RE: [NavList 11301] Celesital Navigation Through Clouds

    Good point GR I am sure Gary has taken that into account. I weigh 185 give or take a few lbs and just bringing the AN 5851 Mk5 will overgross a 172! Definitely looking forward to it who knows maybe we might start and/or revive a cool science.
    Mike Burkes
     
    > From: gregr_ingest---.com
    > To: navlist@fer3.com
    > Subject: Re: [NavList 11299] Celesital Navigation Through Clouds
    > Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 10:41:24 -0800
    >
    > "Gary LaPook" <glapook---.net> wrote:
    >
    > > Here are my thoughts. I can rent a Cessna 172 at Santa Paula airport,
    > > near Ventura California for about a hundred bucks an hour and we will
    > > have to share this cost. It holds four people, one pilot and three
    > > navigators. We fill all the seats and take off and fly out over the
    > > ocean and take sights.
    >
    > Not wanting to second-guess your piloting skills, but you might want to get
    > a weight-check on the prospective navigators first - I don't know of any 172
    > that will hold 4 "average-sized" people + full fuel (or maybe you can
    > arrange with the FBO to not re-fuel it on the last flight before this one?),
    > not to mention the relatively-short runway at SZP.
    >
    > Also, what sort of refractive correction would need to be made for the
    > Plexiglas windscreen and windows, or is it insignificant enough not to worry
    > about? Though I guess it could also be determined "empirically" using the
    > known GPS position as a reference, and then factoring in whatever extra
    > correction is needed to make the celestial LOP agree with that.
    >
    > > I will try to get out to the airport next week and see if it is possible
    > > to use a sextant in back since I have never tried this before.
    >
    > It's been a while since I was in the rear seat of a 172, but if I remember
    > right the top of the passenger windows slopes downwards from the front -
    > might be problematic for 2 people trying to take sights together, but might
    > work OK for one person if they had to crouch down to get a clear sight
    > through the window.
    >
    > > Did I mention that it was 77 degrees here today?
    >
    > And people wonder why we put up with all the "inconveniences" to live
    > here..... ;-)
    >
    > --
    > GregR
    >
    >
    >
    > ----- Original Message -----
    > From: "Gary LaPook" <glapook---.net>
    > To: <navlist@fer3.com>
    > Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 6:00 AM
    > Subject: Re: [NavList 11293] Celesital Navigation Through Clouds
    >
    >
    > > Here are my thoughts. I can rent a Cessna 172 at Santa Paula airport,
    > > near Ventura California for about a hundred bucks an hour and we will
    > > have to share this cost. It holds four people, one pilot and three
    > > navigators. We fill all the seats and take off and fly out over the
    > > ocean and take sights. You can bring your own bubble sextant and I can
    > > supply a variety of bubble sextants, MA-1, MA-2, A-10A, A-7 and the
    > > navigators can take a number of sights each using different instruments
    > > if they choose. The navigator siting in the right seat can take the
    > > sights while the navigators in the back seats can record data. We will
    > > push the button on the GPS at the mid time of each sight so we can
    > > determine the accuracy of the sights, the navigator with the worst
    > > average buys the beer. Since the plane won't allow the navigators to
    > > change seats in flight we will land at the Oxnard airport, right next to
    > > the beach, to allow the navigators to change seats and a new navigator
    > > to start taking sights. I estimate that it will take each navigator
    > > about a half hour so the plane cost should be about fifty bucks each. It
    > > may be possible to lower this cost somewhat if it is possible to take
    > > sights from the back seats through the back window as this would
    > > eliminate the necessity of landing to change shooters. I will try to get
    > > out to the airport next week and see if it is possible to use a sextant
    > > in back since I have never tried this before. If more than three
    > > navigators are interested in participating we can switch out crews at
    > > the Oxnard airport.
    > >
    > > I believe the best dates for this would be January 9-10; February 6-7;
    > > or February 20-21 or possibly later in the year. We should plan on
    > > flying on a Saturday and keep Sunday as a backup in case of bad weather
    > > on Saturday. The reason I suggest these dates is that the sun and the
    > > moon will both be visible with good cuts for daytime fixes.
    > >
    > > If anybody is coming from afar, the Burbank (BUR) airport is the most
    > > convenient. LAX is a bit farther and Long Beach (LGB) is about as
    > > convenient as LAX (it might not look like it on a map but a map doesn't
    > > show the traffic coming from LAX on the 405 over the Sepulveda pass.)
    > > Ontario (ONT) is also doable so shop for the best airfare. Things to do
    > > in the area include Santa Barbara for wine tours, an hour drive up the
    > > coast. San Diego is about a three hour drive down the coast or one can
    > > take a train. You can go aboard the Star of India and the carrier
    > > Midway. Long Beach for the Queen Mary and a Russian submarine. Near Long
    > > Beach in San Pedro is the Lane Victory (a victory ship) and a good
    > > maritime museum. One can also drive five hours and see Yosemite which is
    > > beautiful in winter. A different five hour drive up the coast takes you
    > > to San Francisco or you can take a train or fly.You can visit the
    > > Pampanito submarine (SS-383) and several historic vessels including a
    > > liberty ship, the Jeremiah O'Brien. A four hour drive from here is
    > > Vegas, baby. There are plenty of flights from BUR to Vegas also. A three
    > > hour drive takes you to Palm Springs. A two hour drive takes you to the
    > > ski slopes.
    > >
    > > Did I mention that it was 77 degrees here today?
    > >
    > >
    > > http://www.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/findweather/getForecast?query=93021
    > >
    > >
    > > gl
    > >
    > >
    > > frankreed{at}HistoricalAtlas.com wrote:
    > > >
    > > > Peter Monta, you wrote:
    > > > "Wouldn't a UAV be the logical solution here? I'm not sure units with
    > > > 40000ft capability are all that cheap yet, though. A very small
    > > > payload might suffice for sun sights (small camera). Establishing the
    > > > offset from UAV position to ship would probably come free with the
    > > > overall control scheme to get the thing back, and the 2D offset would
    > > > only be a mile or two anyway. Fixed wing might be best for smallest
    > > > platform jitter when taking the sight."
    > > >
    > > > Nice! That's a very clever solution to the problem of the 40,000 foot
    > > > mast. And if the sensor package is cheap enough (a camera and a radio
    > > > with a ten-mile range?) then you could make them expendable and launch
    > > > on weather balloons. The price of the balloon might turn out to be
    > > > greater than the cel nav package. Whether that's more economical than
    > > > a mini/micro-UAV or not would depend on the cost of the "toy plane"
    > > > and the expected loss rate. In any case, a system like this means no
    > > > sextant and no navigator holding said sextant, so it certainly takes
    > > > the charm out of it, but at least it would still be real celestial
    > > > navigation.
    > > >
    > > > -FER
    > > >
    > > > --
    > > > NavList message boards: www.fer3.com/arc
    > > > Or post by email to: NavList@fer3.com
    > > > To unsubscribe, email NavList+unsubscribe@fer3.com
    > >
    > > --
    > > NavList message boards: www.fer3.com/arc
    > > Or post by email to: NavList@fer3.com
    > > To unsubscribe, email NavList+unsubscribe@fer3.com
    >
    > --
    > NavList message boards: www.fer3.com/arc
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