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    Re: Bygrave and Chichester
    From: Gary LaPook
    Date: 2009 Aug 3, 01:43 -0700

    I flew my partner and photographer up to Paradise from CMA in a
    Cherokee 180. The accident aircraft turned slightly to the left after
    takeoff to avoid trees ahead and clipped a tree past the departure end
    of the runway off to the left and fell down into the steep ravine on
    that side.
    
    gl
    
    On Aug 3, 1:11�am, Tom Sult  wrote:
    > I lived in paradise for a while and flew from there a lot. �One lands �
    > to the up hill and takes off to the down hill. �I would not even think �
    > of a T&G on the up hill with rapidly rising terrain. �If one were to �
    > do a T&G to the down hill (descending at about 1000 ft/min. to clear �
    > terrain and make the touch down point, one could get a lot of air �
    > speed off the departure end of the runway... it is essentially a cliff!
    > Thomas A. Sult, MD
    > IntegraCare Clinicwww.icareclinics.com
    > ts...@charter.net
    >
    > On Aug 2, 2009, at 6:03 PM, Gary LaPook wrote:
    >
    > > Cessna 336 and 337 planes are centerline thrust so do not have the �
    > > yawing problem when one engine fails but do have the severe �
    > > reduction in climb performance
    > > �in common with other twins. It may come as a surprise but twins �
    > > weighing up to 6,000 pounds that have a stall speed of not more than �
    > > 61 knots are not required to be able to climb on one engine. FAR �
    > > 23.67 (a)(2) only requires that " the steady gradient of climb or �
    > > descent" must be determined. An example of this is the Piper Apache �
    > > which had a pretty good decent rate on one engine. I am not sure �
    > > that the 336 would climb on one engine since it had fixed gear. The �
    > > 337 would climb on one but with just the minimum rate required by �
    > > regulations. Federal Aviation Regulation (FAR) 23.67(a)(1) only �
    > > requires a 1.5% gradient on one engine. I don't have my 337 manual �
    > > with me (I am in Paris) but I think its single engine best rate of �
    > > climb speed (Vyse) was about 90 knots or 9114 feet per minute. 1.5% �
    > > of this is only a 136 feet per minute rate of climb. I had a case in �
    > > which the heirs of a pilot who did a touch and go at a one way �
    > > airport in Paradise California claimed that he had suffered an �
    > > engine failure caused by my mechanic client's negligence in �
    > > installing a defective electric boost pump on the rear engine.(Never �
    > > mind that in a 337 the boost pump is not supposed to be turned on �
    > > for landing.) Of course, everyone knows you don't do a touch and go �
    > > on a one way airport since the terrain rises faster than planes can �
    > > climb. (A one way runway is one on the side of a steep mountain, you �
    > > land uphill and take off downhill towards lower terrain. You don't �
    > > do a touch and go, momentarily landing and then taking off again, in �
    > > the direction of rising terrain.) We were able to prove by witness �
    > > testimony of the point where he started his takeoff again to the �
    > > point where he hit the tree that it was impossible for the plane to �
    > > climb at that gradient on only one engine, both engines had to have �
    > > been operating to get to the point, near the top of the tree, where �
    > > the plane impacted.
    >
    > > A problem unique to the 336/337 was that sometimes the rear engine �
    > > would quit while waiting for takeoff and the pilot wouldn't k know �
    > > it and so would attempt to takeoff with only the forward engine �
    > > which resulted in takeoff accidents. The proper technique is to �
    > > advance the throttle of the rear engine prior to advancing the �
    > > throttle of the front engine so that this problem could be identified.
    >
    > > gl
    >
    > > 1.1 Critical engine means the engine whose failure would most �
    > > adversely affect the performance or handling qualities of an aircraft.
    >
    > > Title 14: Aeronautics and Space
    > > PART 23�AIRWORTHINESS STANDARDS: NORMAL, UTILITY, ACROBATIC, AND �
    > > COMMUTER CATEGORY AIRPLANES
    > > Subpart B�Flight
    > > Performance
    > > Browse Previous | Browse Next
    > > � 23.67 � Climb: One engine inoperative.
    >
    > > (a) For normal, utility, and acrobatic category reciprocating engine-
    > > powered airplanes of 6,000 pounds or less maximum weight, the �
    > > following apply:
    >
    > > (1) Except for those airplanes that meet the requirements prescribed �
    > > in �23.562(d), each airplane with a VSOof more than 61 knots must be �
    > > able to maintain a steady climb gradient of at least 1.5 percent at �
    > > a pressure altitude of 5,000 feet with the�
    >
    > > (i) Critical engine inoperative and its propeller in the minimum �
    > > drag position;
    >
    > > (ii) Remaining engine(s) at not more than maximum continuous power;
    >
    > > (iii) Landing gear retracted;
    >
    > > (iv) Wing flaps retracted; and
    >
    > > (v) Climb speed not less than 1.2 VS1.
    >
    > > (2) For each airplane that meets the requirements prescribed in �
    > > �23.562(d), or that has a VSOof 61 knots or less, the steady �
    > > gradient of climb or descent at a pressure altitude of 5,000 feet �
    > > must be determined with the�
    >
    > > (i) Critical engine inoperative and its propeller in the minimum �
    > > drag position;
    >
    > > (ii) Remaining engine(s) at not more than maximum continuous power;
    >
    > > (iii) Landing gear retracted;
    >
    > > (iv) Wing flaps retracted; and
    >
    > > (v) Climb speed not less than 1.2VS1.
    >
    > > Tom Sult wrote:
    >
    > >> I agree with what you have said but the crash data for 336/337 is no
    > >> better than other twins.
    > >> Thomas A. Sult, MD
    > >> IntegraCare Clinic
    > >>www.icareclinics.com
    > >> ts...@charter.net
    >
    > >> On Aug 2, 2009, at 3:58 PM, Greg R. wrote:
    >
    > >>> Not to speak for Gary, but the pusher/puller configuration has
    > >>> what's called
    > >>> "centerline thrust" - i.e. if you lose an engine, the thrust vector
    > >>> stays on
    > >>> the centerline - theoretically making the engine-out procedure
    > >>> easier to
    > >>> handle (ditto for a single-engine, though the engine-out procedure
    > >>> is a lot
    > >>> more cut-and-dried... �;-)).
    >
    > >>> Wing-mounted twins have a more-complicated engine-out procedure -
    > >>> not only
    > >>> identifying the dead engine, securing/feathering it (also true of
    > >>> centerline-mounted engine configs), but also maintaining a slight
    > >>> bank angle
    > >>> to compensate for the thrust imbalance caused by the dead engine.
    >
    > >>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_engine
    >
    > >>> Not sure if the Vmc (minimum-controllable velocity) restrictions
    > >>> would apply
    > >>> to A/C with centerline-mounted engines, that's probably a question
    > >>> for Gary.
    >
    > >>> --
    > >>> GregR
    >
    > >>> ----- Original Message -----
    > >>> From: "Greg Rudzinski" 
    > >>> To: "NavList" 
    > >>> Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 12:16 PM
    > >>> Subject: [NavList 9297] Re: Bygrave and Chichester
    >
    > >>> Gary,
    >
    > >>> How would the Cessna 336/337 perform if one engine fails? Is there �
    > >>> an
    > >>> advantage to a pusher puller configuration over a single or wing
    > >>> mounted twins?
    >
    > >>> Greg
    >
    > >>> On Aug 2, 11:18 am, Gary LaPook  wrote:
    >
    > >>>> Well, I would agree with you Douglas, as judged from our
    > >>>> perspective in
    > >>>> 2009, that Chichester may have been "reckless." But as judged from
    > >>>> the
    > >>>> standards of aviation pioneers almost 80 years ago, I prefer the �
    > >>>> word
    > >>>> "bold." If you look at early pioneering efforts, Lindberg, Perry, �
    > >>>> Sir
    > >>>> John Franklin, Columbus etc., they all appear reckless as viewed
    > >>>> through
    > >>>> our prism of time. But that is what pioneering is all about, taking
    >
    > >>> chances.
    >
    > >>>> Regarding you preference for twin engine flying, the accident
    > >>>> statistics
    > >>>> show that they are more dangerous than singles, pretty
    > >>>> counter-intuitive. Flying a twin when both engines are operating is
    > >>>> just
    > >>>> like flying a single, it only gets interesting when one quits. Then
    > >>>> the
    > >>>> pilot must deal with a greatly reduced performance envelope and
    > >>>> asymmetric thrust causing control difficulties. If the pilot
    > >>>> doesn't do
    > >>>> everything exactly right he ends up crashing and the crash happens
    > >>>> at a
    > >>>> higher speed than would have occurred in a single. By US
    > >>>> certification
    > >>>> standards (I expect they are similar in Britain) a single must �
    > >>>> have a
    > >>>> stall speed below 60 knots while a twin can have a much higher �
    > >>>> speed.
    > >>>> This means that a pilot trying to crash land a twin must fly above
    > >>>> the
    > >>>> stall speed resulting in a higher impact speed and much more �
    > >>>> kinetic
    > >>>> energy to dissipate (varies with velocity squared), can we say �
    > >>>> "torn
    > >>>> aluminum" and "mangled bodies?" I've litigated airplane crashes for
    > >>>> the
    > >>>> last twenty years and I have seen my share of bent aluminum and
    > >>>> autopsy
    > >>>> photos. (BTW, a Cessna 310 Twin fits in a box on a standard pallet,
    > >>>> about five feet square and three feet deep after it impacts the �
    > >>>> dirt.
    > >>>> Airplanes are mostly air surrounded by an aluminum skin, just �
    > >>>> like an
    > >>>> empty beer can and they squish just like a beer can..)
    >
    > >>>> After the loss of one engine the airplane has little or no climb
    > >>>> capability. It will only climb or maintain altitude if the pilot �
    > >>>> does
    > >>>> everything right. If he doesn't get rid or the drag form the flaps,
    > >>>> the
    > >>>> landing gear and the windmilling propeller immediately then he is
    > >>>> going
    > >>>> down.
    >
    > >>>> I'll give you some examples. About seven years ago a Cessna 310 was
    > >>>> taking off from Laverne airport just northeast of Los Angeles on �
    > >>>> July
    > >>>> 4, 2002, Independence Day. One engine quit right after takeoff and
    > >>>> the
    > >>>> pilot did not do everything right and the plane crashed on top of a
    > >>>> bunch of picnickers celebrating Independence Day in the park near �
    > >>>> the
    > >>>> airport resulting in the deaths of the two occupants of the plane,
    > >>>> two
    > >>>> deaths of the picnickers and severe injuries for nine other �
    > >>>> people on
    > >>>> the ground. See the accident report at:
    >
    > >>>http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?id=LAX01FA152&rpt=fa
    >
    > >>>> The left propeller control was found "one inch aft." In order to
    > >>>> feather
    > >>>> the propeller it is necessary to pull the prop control all the way
    > >>>> aft,
    > >>>> about eight inches. Since the pilot did not move the prop control �
    > >>>> all
    > >>>> the way aft
    >
    > ...
    >
    > read more �
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